{"id":44742,"date":"2017-11-30T15:00:12","date_gmt":"2017-11-30T15:00:12","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.ou.org\/holidays\/?p=44742"},"modified":"2020-09-08T15:51:08","modified_gmt":"2020-09-08T15:51:08","slug":"forgetting-vsein-tal-yaaleh-vyavo-rosh-chodesh","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.ou.org\/holidays\/forgetting-vsein-tal-yaaleh-vyavo-rosh-chodesh\/","title":{"rendered":"Forgetting V&#8217;Sein Tal\/Yaaleh V&#8217;Yavo on Rosh Chodesh"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>On Rosh Chodesh during the winter, what is the halacha if someone forgot to say v\u2019sein tal u\u2019matar, and when he repeated Shmoneh Esrei, he forgot yaaleh v\u2019yavo? In Brachos (26b) there is a machlokes Rishonim brought down in Tosafos and the Rosh regarding someone who forgot to say yaaleh v\u2019yavo in Mincha of Rosh Chodesh, and only realized after nightfall.\u00a0 By then, it was no longer Rosh Chodesh.\u00a0 One shitah holds that there is no reason to daven a tefilas tashlumin (a make-up Shmoneh Esrei which immediately follows the one he is currently davening), because what will he gain by doing that?\u00a0 The whole reason he needs to daven again is in order to get the missed yaaleh v\u2019yavo, and he is not going to get that since tashlumin is always the same Shmoneh Esrei as that of the current tefillah.\u00a0 The other shitah, though, says that having missed yaaleh v\u2019yavo is as if he did not daven, and he must daven a tefilas tashlumin to make up for that lost tefillah. The first shitah holds that missing yaaleh v\u2019yavo is not as if you didn\u2019t daven.\u00a0 Yaaleh v\u2019yavo, according to the first shitah, was not enacted as an inherent part of the Shmoneh Esrei; rather, it is a separate obligation of b\u2019chol yom v\u2019yom tein lo mei\u2019ein birchosav \u2013 a requirement to mention mei\u2019ein ha\u2019meorah, the specialness of that particular day.<\/p>\n<p>To sharpen the point, consider the following question.\u00a0 In general, when one has to daven again because of forgetting yaaleh v\u2019yavo, is he allowed to eat before davening again?\u00a0 The answer is that it depends if he is considered to have already davened or not.\u00a0 According to the first shitah, it makes sense to say that he is allowed to eat since he davened already, just he has a chiyuv to daven again in order to facilitate the recitation of yaaleh v\u2019yavo.\u00a0 Whereas according to the second shitah that it is as if he has not davened, then the issur of lo sochlu al ha\u2019dam should still apply. Another nafka minah that sharpens the point: when someone forgot yaaleh v\u2019yavo, are all the brachos of his first Shmoneh Esrei l\u2019vatalah?\u00a0 According to the first shitah no, and according to the second shitah yes.<\/p>\n<p>There is a maaseh that Rav Meir Soloveitchik once forgot yaaleh v\u2019yavo on Shabbos.\u00a0 His father, the Brisker Rav said to him, \u201cNu, so now you have another seven brachos towards your meiah brachos.\u201d\u00a0 Such \u201coffhanded\u201d comments from the Brisker Rav contained hilchesah gevirtah.\u00a0 What he meant is this, that the brachos are not l\u2019vatalah (like the first shitah); although there is a chiyuv to daven again in order to be able to say yaaleh v\u2019yavo, it doesn\u2019t mean that the first teffilah was not a teffilah, it was. It would seem, then, that the above case of someone who forgot v\u2019sein tal u\u2019matar the first time around and yaaleh v\u2019yavo the second time around, is going to be subject to this machlokes.\u00a0 According to the second opinion, he will for sure have to daven a third time \u2013 since each time he missed something which is l\u2019ikuvah it is as if he did not daven; and according to the first opinion he should not have to daven again since he already fulfilled his obligation of mei\u2019ein ha\u2019meorah in the first Shmoneh Esrei, and now, in the second one he said v\u2019sein tal u\u2019matar.<\/p>\n<p>However, that is not so pashut. In Chiddushei Ha\u2019Grach (stencils) it says that someone who forgot v\u2019sein tal u\u2019matar in Mincha of Erev Shabbos \u2013 and only realized his mistake after nightfall \u2013 must daven two Maariv\u2019s.\u00a0 Why?\u00a0 Harei, according to the first shitah in Tosafos we should ostensibly say, \u201cWhat does he stand to gain?!\u00a0 He is now holding by Maariv of Shabbos in which there is no v\u2019sein tal u\u2019matar, so his tashlumin will not make up for what he lost?!\u00a0 The reasoning that Reb Chaim gives is, \u201cbecause he was meshaneh mi\u2019matbeiah sheh\u2019tavu Chachamim.\u201d\u00a0 In other words, v\u2019sein tal u\u2019matar is not an extraneous hazkarah, it was enacted as an essential part of the actual Shmoneh Esrei.\u00a0 Therefore, when one forgets v\u2019sein tal u\u2019matar, his requirement to re-daven Shmoneh Esrei is not just in order to be able to say the hazkarah of tal u\u2019matar; rather, it is the din teffilah itself that requires him to daven again.\u00a0 This is in contrast to yaaleh v\u2019yavo which the first shitah holds is not part of the teffilah itself, but just and added hazkarah of mei\u2019ein ha\u2019meorah.<\/p>\n<p>That being the case, one could posit that everyone would agree that in the aforementioned scenario (of forgetting tal u\u2019matar the first time around and yaaleh v\u2019yavo the second time around) that he has to daven a third time since the context in which he said yaaleh v\u2019yavo the first time around was deficient. However, there is room to argue that even according to Reb Chaim, he does not have to daven a third time (according to the first shitah).\u00a0 How is that?\u00a0 It is as follows.\u00a0 What is the halacha if someone forgot v\u2019sein tal u\u2019matar in Bareich Aleinu and remembered in the middle of Shma Koleinu?\u00a0 The din is that he says the bakasha of v\u2019sein tal u\u2019matar right there in Shma Koleinu!\u00a0 Now, what if he forgot the\u00a0<strong>entire<\/strong>\u00a0bracha of Bareich Aleinu \u2013 or any other bracha for that matter \u2013 can he make it up in Shma Koleinu?\u00a0 For sure not!\u00a0 There is no question that if someone omitted a bracha, he has thereby ruined the Shmoneh Esrei and it cannot be \u201cfixed\u201d by inserting it into Shma Koleinu.\u00a0 A Shmoneh Esrei has to be a Shmoneh Esrei, and without all the brachos, it simply isn\u2019t.\u00a0 What we see, then, from the fact that v\u2019sein tal u\u2019matar can be made up in Shma Koleinu, is that the omission of v\u2019sein tal u\u2019matar from Bareich Aleinu does not make it as if you are now missing that bracha.\u00a0 The bracha is still in place, just you still have a chiyuv to say v\u2019sein tal u\u2019matar. What could come out, then, is that what Reb Chaim means is that when one omits v\u2019sein tal u\u2019matar (completely), the requirement to daven again is because he does not have a\u00a0<strong>kiyum<\/strong>\u00a0of teffilah, he did not fulfill his obligation of davening a proper Shmoneh Esrei.\u00a0 However, it could nevertheless be that it was still in fact a cheftzah of teffilah; the Shmoneh Esrei that he davened did not become null and void, and therefore may well be a valid enough of a context in which he could fulfill his obligation of mei\u2019ein ha\u2019meorah of yaaleh v\u2019yavo.<br \/>\n(Audio recording)<\/p>\n<p><em>Provided courtesy of <a href=\"http:\/\/www.vayigdalmoshe.com\/\">VayigdalMoshe.com<\/a><\/em><\/p>\n<div class=\"_5wd9\">\n<div class=\"_5wde _n4o\">\n<div class=\"_5w1r _3_om _5wdf\">\n<div class=\"_4gx_\"><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>On Rosh Chodesh during the winter, what is the halacha if someone forgot to say v\u2019sein tal u\u2019matar, and when he repeated Shmoneh Esrei, he forgot yaaleh v\u2019yavo? In Brachos (26b) there is a machlokes Rishonim brought down in Tosafos and the Rosh regarding someone who forgot to say yaaleh v\u2019yavo in Mincha of Rosh [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":133194,"featured_media":38974,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[362],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-44742","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-months"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v24.9 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Forgetting V&#039;Sein Tal\/Yaaleh V&#039;Yavo on Rosh Chodesh - Jewish Holidays<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"On a Rosh Chodesh in the winter, what if someone forgot to say v\u2019sein tal u\u2019matar, and when he repeated Shmoneh Esrei, he forgot yaaleh v\u2019yavo?\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.ou.org\/holidays\/forgetting-vsein-tal-yaaleh-vyavo-rosh-chodesh\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Forgetting V&#039;Sein Tal\/Yaaleh V&#039;Yavo on Rosh Chodesh - 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