Time to leave the US.
If the US is telling Israel where Jews can or can not live in Eretz Yisrael then they will soon be gving Jews the boot from the US
It seems to me that I’m not very smart, so I’d truly appreciate some explanation to the following posts on this forum.
First, to the Administrator of the forum. The question which you pose is: “...Will the disengagement solve Israel’s problems?...”
Is this truly your question?
1. There’s a quote by LHABER saying: “...Nonetheless, it is my prayer that Sharon get’s what is coming to him (Condeleeza Rice)...”
a) Does that mean that if/when Ms. Rice puts pressure on Sharon (i.e. the State of Israel), the writer will be happy?
b) Will such a “lesson” to the Prime Minister answer the writer’s prayers?
c) Is the writer wishing for pressure to be put on the State of Israel?
2. To THALHEIM who put up the pictures of the 3 teenage girls in jail, I have the following questions:
a) Why didn’t you also say that the judge offered them freedom if they promised to obey the law from that point on, and they refused?
b) Why didn’t the writer mention that their parents, when (unwillingly) brought in front of the judge, refused to be responsible for their childrens actions and said that objecting to the disengagement in whatever way (ex. blocking highways) is more important than obeying the law (that, “strangely”, forbids blocking highways)?
d) What would the writer have done, had he/she been the judge in this case?
e) What was the call for people to contact the US State Deptartement all about? To further enhance the claims of the Sudanese, Lybians, Palestinians, Cubans and other “human rights advocates’’ of the “truth” in their long standing claims of the repressive nature of the Israeli regime?
3. To LHABER who writes: “… My complaint was with the lack of the freedom of speech to protest...”
a) Where exactly is there a “lack of freedome of speach”? In Rabin Square where 150,000 persons showed up to protest the disengagement with firey speeches? Or was it at the Kotel, where tens of thousands demonstrated?
b) Was it in the Knesset’s Foreign affairs committee, where some members said to a sitting Prime Minister (to his face) you are a liar, a cruel and a corrupt person who should resign?
c) Maybe the lack of freedom of speech was demonstrated by another MK (Effi Eitan) who predicted that Sharon would be sent to his “MUKTAAH” in the Negev (See: Item:...Arafat… for explanation of the term MUKTAAH).
d) Perhaps the lack of freedom of speech to protest was further demonstrated by the parents who prepared yellow/orange Stars of David, sewed them to their children’s cloths and had them leave their houses with their hands up in the air, reminiscent of the famous picture of the boy leaving his bunker after the fall of the Warsaw Ghetto on his way to Treblinka? (I don’t think that I need to further elaborate the connotation of the parallelism of the “expelling forces").
e) Maybe Mr. Netanyahu was prevented from expressing his views? Or was it the Rabbanim who called on soldiers to disobey orders (i.e. a call for rebellion)?
f) Could the lack of freedom, perhaps, be in the death curse which was put on the Prime Minister by some so called Cabalists?
g) Is it possible that the “lack of freedom of expression to protest” manifested itself when some right wing (religious) media referred to the Israli Police as KALGASEI HA MISHTARA (= Police thugs)? Those of us who are not very fluent in modern Hebrew should know that the word KALGASIM (Kof-Lamed-Gimel-Samech-Yud-Mem)is almost always reserved to the SA and SS; not even to the Wermacht.
h) Finally, could it be that the so called “lack of freedom to protest” has simply something to do with the authorities in Israel not allowing the roads to be blocked, and their saying - Protest on the sidewalk and not on the thoroughfare?
How long does the writer think that we would last before getting arrested if we decided to block traffic on the NJ Turnpike in the name of some cause? Would the writer consider that as a “lack of freedom to protest”?
As I said earlier, I’m not very smart and would appreciate some answers.
Thanks in advance.
Pinhas
New York
To Pinhas:
1. There’s a quote by LHABER saying: “...Nonetheless, it is my prayer that Sharon get’s what is coming to him (Condeleeza Rice)...”
a) Does that mean that if/when Ms. Rice puts pressure on Sharon (i.e. the State of Israel), the writer will be happy?
IT SEEMS TO ME THAT YOU DO NOT APPRECIATE SARCASM. NO, I DO NOT THINK ISRAEL NEEDS PRESSURE FROM THE US, I THINK SHE SHOULD BE LEFT TO PLOT HER OWN DESTINY.
b) Will such a “lesson” to the Prime Minister answer the writer’s prayers?
ACTUALLY, I THINK HE IS STARTING TO GET HIS JUST REWARD, UNFORTUNATELY, IT LOOKS LIKE THE WRONG SHARON WILL BE GOING TO PRISON.
c) Is the writer wishing for pressure to be put on the State of Israel?
OBVIOUSLY NOT.
3. To LHABER who writes: “… My complaint was with the lack of the freedom of speech to protest...”
a) Where exactly is there a “lack of freedome of speach”? In Rabin Square where 150,000 persons showed up to protest the disengagement with firey speeches? Or was it at the Kotel, where tens of thousands demonstrated?
b) Was it in the Knesset’s Foreign affairs committee, where some members said to a sitting Prime Minister (to his face) you are a liar, a cruel and a corrupt person who should resign?
c) Maybe the lack of freedom of speech was demonstrated by another MK (Effi Eitan) who predicted that Sharon would be sent to his “MUKTAAH” in the Negev (See: Item:...Arafat… for explanation of the term MUKTAAH).
d) Perhaps the lack of freedom of speech to protest was further demonstrated by the parents who prepared yellow/orange Stars of David, sewed them to their children’s cloths and had them leave their houses with their hands up in the air, reminiscent of the famous picture of the boy leaving his bunker after the fall of the Warsaw Ghetto on his way to Treblinka? (I don’t think that I need to further elaborate the connotation of the parallelism of the “expelling forces").
e) Maybe Mr. Netanyahu was prevented from expressing his views? Or was it the Rabbanim who called on soldiers to disobey orders (i.e. a call for rebellion)?
f) Could the lack of freedom, perhaps, be in the death curse which was put on the Prime Minister by some so called Cabalists?
g) Is it possible that the “lack of freedom of expression to protest” manifested itself when some right wing (religious) media referred to the Israli Police as KALGASEI HA MISHTARA (= Police thugs)? Those of us who are not very fluent in modern Hebrew should know that the word KALGASIM (Kof-Lamed-Gimel-Samech-Yud-Mem)is almost always reserved to the SA and SS; not even to the Wermacht.
h) Finally, could it be that the so called “lack of freedom to protest” has simply something to do with the authorities in Israel not allowing the roads to be blocked, and their saying - Protest on the sidewalk and not on the thoroughfare?
How long does the writer think that we would last before getting arrested if we decided to block traffic on the NJ Turnpike in the name of some cause? Would the writer consider that as a “lack of freedom to protest”?
WHAT ABOUT THE DENIAL OF A RIGHT TO PROTEST IN GUSH KATIF PRIOR TO THE WITHDRAWAL? WHAT ABOUT THE REFUSAL TO ALLOW VISITORS FROM INDIA ADMISSION TO THE KNESSET BUILDING BECAUSE THEY WERE WEARING ORANGE SARIS? OR THAT PEOPLE WERE FORBIDDEN ENTRY INTO PUBLIC BUILDINGS, MALLS, ETC. IF THEY WORE ORANGE. WHAT ABOUT THE LAW FORBIDDING BUMPER STICKERS READING:"NO ARABS, NO TERROR” OR “KAHANE WAS RIGHT”? WHAT ABOUT THE LAW THAT FORBIDS REGULAR CITIZENS FROM “INSULTING GOVERNMENT MINISTERS” (WHO DEFINES INSULT ANYWAY?).
HAD YOU EVER VISITED GUSH KATIF? DO YOU TRULY KNOW WHAT WAS LOST? DO YOU CARE? ARE YOU A SUPPORTER OF SHALOM ACHSHAV? YOU SOUND LIKE IT.
Your response is typical of American Jews who do not understand what life in Israel is all about. You are too busy talking among yourselves and never listen to the ‘common folks’ who do not live in the Shtachim. You are experts at feeding each other with the same slogans and same ideology.
a) How long do you think you’d last in the USA if you had a racist sticker on your car? “Kahana was right” - He was “right”, in what sense? Could you please explain that? Where do you think the State of Israel would be today, if it followed Kahana’s ideology? Do you think that you’d even be able to fly to Israel? Please keep in mind that in order to reach Israel from the US you have to fly over many countries, which, most likely, would close off their airspace to Israeli airlines and traffic. I don’t even want to think about the economic implications of such an ideology. (Remember Yugoslavia?).
b) You complain about someone not being able to (what seemed to) demonstrate inside the Knesset. Isn’t the Speaker of the Knesset, Mr. Rivlin, one of the fiercest antagonists of Mr. Sharon? And isn’t he the one in charge of who/what goes on in that building? Do you accuse Mr. Rivlin of being “undemocratic” as well? In Addition, could you hold a demonstration inside a public building in the United States? Could you do it inside the US Capitol? Or inside the British Parliament?
c) Yes, there is a law on the books in Israel regarding “Insulting Public Officials” - NOT MINISTERS per se. Yes, it even includes Policemen/soldiers who are called Nazi storm troopers. But this law has been on the books for many years. Has it bothered your “sense of justice” before? Or, has it started just now? Besides, I don’t think that anyone was indicted for violating this law; otherwise, many people would have faced a judge a long time ago.
d) Even if there’s such a law on the books, do you have a right to complain about a law that exists in another country? Move there and change the law!
e) No, I don’t understand your sarcasm about Sharon and Ms. Rice. I only read what you wrote about your prayers being answered if Ms. Rice taught Sharon a “lesson”.
f) As for “the wrong Sharon going to jail”. Are you the judge? the jury?(Oops, sorry, no Jury in Israel). Have you heard ALL the evidence already? If yes, maybe you should enlighten us too!
g) If people were not allowed to demonstrate their “orange/yellow” colors in Malls, was that the fault of the government too? Or, was it a decision of private Mall owners/managers? Do you think that you could demonstrate inside a mall here?
h) Does the Army have a right, by Israeli law, to close off certain areas to civilians? If yes, then what is your complaint about?
i) I think that you should re-read the note which “ stillsmallvoice” has posted on this site about how the (religious) right wing has “missed it”. He/she, at least, lives in Israel and understands what the “other half” sees and feels. And I do not have to agree with everything that he/she writes.
j) Do you think that this withdrawal was “Retzon Hashem”? Or, is G-d’s plan include only things which fit our theory and political ideology?
Finally, in a typical right-wing diatribe, anyone who does not agree with you is being and labled as a member of “Shalom Achshav”, or at least as a “cousin of Arafat”.
Like I said earlier, I’m not very smart, and would appreciate some explanations.
Thank you.
Pinhas
New York
Pinhas, I see from you signature, that you live “there” (New York) not “here” Israel. While it is true that I am not privileged to live in Israel, My Son, daughter-in-law and five grandchildren do live there. And, yes, they live in the Judean Hills so I guess by your definition they are evil settlers, and not an Israeli (sorry). And yes, he did work hard to get Sharon Elected based upon his promises. And, quite frankly, I have seen many racist bumper stickers in NY (not as many in NJ, I guess we are more civilized). And since I prefer to fly a civilized airline, as opposed to ElAl, I would probably be able to get to Israel the 2 or 3 times a year I go anyway.
And as to demonstrations, peaceful or otherwise, I am old enough to remember, and to have participated in, the Civil Rights protests of the 50’s and 60’s so I do know what meaningful, sustained, protests can do. I did not go to jail but I do respect those that do (where would the African Americans be today if people like MLK, Jr. did not put their lives on the line?
I am old enough to remember the Viet Nam protests even though I personally did not participate. I believe that protest, preferably peaceful ones, can accomplish much. I feel that by prohibiting peaceful demonstrations, and yes, I got first hand reports from my children from Gush Katif, The Kotel, and Tel Aviv. And I admit, I feel that sealing off parts of a country and prohibiting it’s citizens free access is wrong (the people who lived in Gush Katiff were, and still are, citizens, I believe).
I for one do not like name calling, and I apologize if I offended you with my remark regarding Shalom Achshav. I am, by nature, age, and bent, a right winger, I plead guilty. I also do not want the my son’s property handed away to a bunch a people who have no LEGITIMATE claim to biblical lands. If the foregoing makes me a racist, so be it. I do believe that if the six day war continued for another few days, there would be no problem with the Arabs today, they would be living where they belong, in Jordan.
In any event, I ramble and do not feel I am accomplishing anything. I will not convince you of my side, nor will you convince me of yours. Let’s just remember the words of one of MBD’s songs—Someday we will all be together.
You are correct in one thing. We will not be able to convince each other of our views. Nor should we try, IMHO.
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But at least, quote me correctly: I did not call the settlers “evil”.
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I think that my views are very clear and do not need further elaboration, so I’ll not repeat my points. One thing to which I’d like an answer though: Was the withdrawal “Retzon Hashem”? (My question #j).
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Finally, I’m totally stunned: NJ a Civilized State? I thought the whole State consisted of Route 4 plus some restaurants in Teaneck!
Good Day,
Pinhas
New York
You are correct in one thing. We will not be able to convince each other of our views. Nor should we try, IMHO.-- I agree
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But at least, quote me correctly: I did not call the settlers “evil”.—I found it implicit
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I think that my views are very clear and do not need further elaboration, so I’ll not repeat my points. One thing to which I’d like an answer though: Was the withdrawal “Retzon Hashem”? (My question #j).—One has to believe it, as much has to believe the same about the Haulicaust (sp?), Crusades, Pograms, etc.
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Finally, I’m totally stunned: NJ a Civilized State? I thought the whole State consisted of Route 4 plus some restaurants in Teaneck!—If you think all Nj is is route 4 and some restaurants in Teaneck, you have a very provincial view :-) We even have some green stuff here called grass, and these tall things called trees (like the ones that used to grow in Brooklyn).
Good Day,
Pinhas
New York
Thks for the info. re. trees and grass in NJ. I still think that Route 4 is the greatest thing that NJ has to offer.....Cheap Gasoline.
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I don’t want to go on much longer on this subject because, as said earlier, we cannot convince each other. Maybe, this discourse will make others think and comment. If this happens, all the better.
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I want you to think of the following ‘theological’ issues:
a) If it’s “Retzon Hashem”, as we both believe, then where does one come off saying that it was a bad thing?
I have to admit that I have major problems with this issue. (ex. The Shoah etc.)
b) There are some who think that the destruction of the Temple, when it occured, was a good thing. Because, were it not for this event and the rise of ‘Rabbinical Judaism’ that followed and replaced the “Temple Judaism”, Yiddishkeit would have Chas Ve Chalila disappeared.
If this view has any validity, then perhaps G-d in His infinite wisdom saw to it that the withdrawal is also beneficial to Am Yisrael?
Could you please comment on the above.
Thank you,
Pinhas
New York
Gasoline is actually cheapest in Middlesex County (where I live) I’m still paying less than $2.50/Gal. And, in order to stick it to the Arabs, i bought a Hybrid vehicle a year and a half ago :-) It’s getting late, I will try to respond the the balance of your post tomorrow.
I promised myself not to write anymore on the subject, but then I reread your note of yesterday, and felt that I should comment.
1. You write: “...If the 6 days war continued for another few days....” Were you ever in a war? Do you have any idea what it’s all about? Did you even serve in the army? Any army? You are very quick in agreeing to someone else being in a fight, and possibly getting killed. Amazing.
Well, I have fought in two wars. And believe me, it’s no fun.
2. Your saying that if holding some positions on land makes you a racist “..so be it”, must make you and your grandchildren very proud. Of course, you don’t say what was so great in “...Kahana was right..”
3. In a typical fashion you reinforce in me the feeling that the religious right sees the State of Israel sandwiched between Sh-chem and Hebron +/- 10miles. The rest of the country can go to h… This (the “+/- 10miles") is the land of the REAL JEWS.
The rest of Israelis are hardly Jews. As the “hero” Netanyahu said to Harav Kadoori: “ The Leftists are not even Jews”. (Bibi was caught by an open michrophone when he made the statement).
Never mind that the Galil is almost all Arab. Never mind that the Negev is being “stolen” by the Bedouins. Never mind the lack of funds to schools in the rest of the State (30-40 children in a classroom vs. 10-15 in the settlements). Never mind the infrastructure that is crumbling (except in the settlements, that get tax incentives). Never mind the deep poverty that the new right wing “hero” Mr. Netanyahu has orchestrated. Never mind that..........
Everything is fine, as long as we hold on to every piece of our “… LEGITIMATE claim to biblical lands”. While you’re at it, don’t forget to include Syria and Iraq in the “Biblical Lands”. They, too, were promised to Avraham.
4. A Sociology professor at Bar Ilan has recently published an article in which he writes that the Rabbanim have, in the last 100 years, “missed” on every important decision that affected the Jewish people. They did not embrace Zionism, they told their followers to stay in Europe before/during the Shoaah, etc.
IMHO they “missed” on Gush Katif as well. These ‘almost prophets’ who promised that there would be no withdrawal, kept many of their followers unprepared. Just like what has happened in the past. Amazing how history repeats itself.
5. You seem to forget that many nations/empires held on to (what they considered holy) “land”. Yet they were destroyed. Holding on to LAND is no guarantee to success. Building a just and equitable society gives a people some chance of survival, however.
6. In the past few days, a letter from Rabbi Lichtenstein to Harav Shapira was made public. One of the questions that
R. Lichtenstein poses has to do with the Sale of Land in Eretz Yisrael to Non-Jews during the Shmita, which R. Shapira favors. Isn’t this in the same category, asks R. Lichtenstein, as giving up land in Israel to Non-Jews? (As we all know, the sale cannot be “al tnai”.)
Amazing question. I don’t know what the answer is, or if a reply to this issue was formulated.
Finally, You did not refer to my specific questions at all. You seem to me to be one of those who say: “Why allow my theories be ruined by facts. Theories are much better”.
The same holds true to the person who posted the pictures of the 3 girls, but couldn’t/wouldn’t answer the questions which presented the specific facts of the case.
Not surprising.
Pinhas
New York
i) I think that you should re-read the note which “ stillsmallvoice” has posted on this site about how the (religious) right wing has “missed it”. He/she, at least, lives in Israel and understands what the “other half” sees and feels.
1) Thank you.
2) I’m a “he” (42, proud abba of two boychiks, who started 3rd grade & gan hova today - WOO HOO!) who moved here two months shy of 19 years ago.
And I do not have to agree with everything that he/she writes.
Y...you...you don’t??!! :)
But I seem to agree with most of what you post.
Of course the disengagement was ratzon Hashem. What happens to Am Yisrael, or any individual member thereof, that isn’t? Instead of railing against PM Sharon (who, after all, is/was only a tool), we ought to be looking inward, at ourselves, as “religious” Jews, to examine our spiritual deficiencies, to see why such a g’zera could take place (the shocking Nat’l. Insurance Institute, our version of Social Security, 2004 poverty report which was issued a few days before the evacuations took place & which indicated that ONE-THIRD of Israeli children live below the poverty line :ahhh: might be a good place to start; how is it that building a shack in Shirat Yam or Yitzhar Gimmel is an act of heroic Zionism while seeing to it that every Jewish kid in Israel gets a hot lunch isn’t?) & to see why the general Israeli public is still not buying what we’re selling (and blaming our “secular” brothers, or those members of the haredi community who have not enthusiastically joined us, is not the answer here). All too often it is people who find that they are not being listened to who are apt to claim that they are being shut up. Continuing to believe that we’re OK & have done everything right & that why what what happened is due to someone else not being up to snuff (i.e. sticking our head in the spiritual sand) solves nothing & only makes it worse. I read somewhere where chazal say that we must be zealous in rooting out sin & in touting virtue. We must root out sin in ourselves before we seek to root it out in others & tout others’ virtues before we tout our own.
The Haftarah for Beshallah is one of my favorites, for lots of reasons. Shirat Devorah is, I think, among the most poetically beautiful & evocative passages in the entire Tanakh. I love the imagery of Shoftim 5:20.
They fought from heaven, the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.
The very next verse, 5:21, describes how the Kishon River swept Sisera’s army away:
The brook Kishon swept them away, that ancient brook, the brook Kishon.
The Kishon brook/river/stream (http://www.kishon.org.il/english.htm) rises near Jenin and drains over 1,100 square kilometers before emptying into Haifa Bay, between Haifa and the new/biblical city of Acre. It used to be quite beautiful (see http://www.kishon.org.il/time.htm). I say “used to” because, sadly, since the late 1930’s, much of its lower reaches are polluted (http://www.kishon.org.il/pollution.htm) to death (literally!), due to a large industrial area (which Saddam the Wicked lobbed a few SCUDs at in 1991) near its mouth. There, the Kishon is more of a filthy sewer than a river/brook/stream.
I find this so sad, that here, we have taken this Land that Hashem gave us ("a good land, a land of brooks of water, of fountains and depths, springing forth in valleys and hills...” Devarim 8:7) and poisoned parts of it and turned them into obscenities, into blights. Surely Hashem will call us to account for this! Was it for this that He entrusted this Land to our care?
There is one other passage in the Tanakh, in which death and the Kishon are associated, I Melachim 18:40.
And Elijah said unto them: ‘Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape.’ And they took them; and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.
And unfortunately, the Kishon is no less deadly today than it was to Sisera’s army & the priests of Baal. There is a long-running controversy here in Israel about a group of Navy frogmen & commandos who charge that they got cancer from being forced to train in the contaminated Kishon (see http://tinyurl.com/amrop); several of these ex-frogmen/commandos have since died. Hopefully, the efforts of the Environment Ministry’s Kishon River Authority (see the links above) will bear fruit and the Kishon will no longer be associated with death and will once again become the living river that it was in the near past.
On Lag B’Omer, we drove down to Nahal David in the Ein Gedi Nature Reserve (http://tinyurl.com/7rjpa) on the western (Israeli) shore of the Dead Sea. (The lush oasis at Ein Gedi is mentioned 6 times in the Tanakh.) We hiked through the lush vegetation & swam in the natural pools (letting a waterfall of cold water come pouring over your head is wonderful on a hot afternoon!). It is lucky that we visited Nahal David when we did because
Fire Destroys Part of Dead Sea Reserve
Tue May 31, 4:29 PM ET
Two-thirds of Israel’s Ein Gedi nature reserve was destroyed by fire Tuesday, causing considerable damage to animal and plant life in the lush oasis sandwiched between the harsh Judean Desert and the Dead Sea.
Residents of Kibbutz Ein Gedi nearby said the fire covered the kibbutz in smoke, the Haaretz daily reported.
Tourists were evacuated from the area, but no injuries were reported.
The cause of the blaze was not immediately known.
Animal life in the reserve includes the deer-like ibex and hyrax, which resembles a guinea pig, as well as two species of fox, wolves, striped hyenas, and four leopards. It’s an important location for migrating birds, too.
The reserve also is a crossroads of several Mediterranean, African and Asian plant communities, including the northernmost distribution of some Sudanian flora.
Also at risk are archaeological sites, including ruins from the Chalcolithic period about 4,000 B.C., when inhabitants first began to use copper. During the Byzantine period, the Jewish residents of the area built a synagogue there. Ein Gedi also is mentioned in the Bible.
After hours of battling the flames, firemen, with much-needed help from spray plains – managed to extinguish the large fire that broke out at the Nahal David nature reserve in Ein Gedi earlier Tuesday evening.
The popular site suffered heavy damage. All visitors were safely evacuated from the reserve.
The fire was believed to have been caused by a cigarette that was not extinguished properly.
(From The Jerusalem Post)
Go to a city or national park, or nature reserve, here the day after a holiday (or any day, actually) & see all the garbage & refuse that people leave/left laying around :sick: . We just had the Maccabiah recently; remember what killed those Australian athletes who fell into the Yarkon, it wasn’t the fall, it was the poisons in the mud/sludge at the bottom of the Yarkon that the fall stirred up. I wonder if we’re having such difficulties hanging onto certain parts of Eretz Yisrael because we abuse & mistreat the parts we already have. It is almost as if Hashem is saying, “Hmm, lemme see here. You say that you love Eretz Yisrael. Really? You have polluted the rivers & streams to death. The parks are full of litter & garbage. What you don’t pollute & throw garbage on, you burn down. Yes, yes, you really do love Eretz Yisrael.”
